Grief and Rebirth: Finding the Joy in Life | Tanya Cole-Lesnick | Energetic Clutter


Psychotherapist and Personal Development Coach Tanya Cole-Lesnick had her first experience with a therapist in her mid-twenties when she sought the answer to why her love life wasn’t living up to her hopes, and she wanted to understand what was getting in the way. One-on-one therapy was followed up by group therapy that significantly transformed Tanya’s life, because not only did she meet and marry her husband during that time, but she also made the decision to leave her career as a graphic designer and become a therapist, going on to receive a master’s degree in social work from NYU and deciding to dedicate her life to helping others lead lives that they truly love. During her nearly three decades as a licensed clinical social worker, psychotherapist, and coach, Tanya has found therapeutic groups to be an incredibly powerful way to foster emotional growth. Tune in and find out how group therapy changed Tanya’s relationship with herself, what is the energetic clutter that keeps people from growth and meaning in their lives, how group work helps people touch on their unconscious issues, her transformational coaching program called Activate, and more, for an insights filled interview that can light your path to healing, growth, and new meaning in life!


  • The feelings of shame Tanya grappled with when she began one-on-one therapy to overcome her feelings of unlovability.
  • What Tanya’s first experience with group therapy taught her about the human experience.
  • Identifiers that indicate a person would benefit from group therapy.
  • How energetic clutter keeps people from growth and meaning in their lives.


  • How old were you when you became aware of feeling unlovable, and what contributed to those feelings?
  • How did making a documentary inspire you to professionally go out on your own?
  • What are some of the powerful factors that influence our lives?
  • How are your transformational therapeutic coaching groups called Activate unique to group therapy, and how do they allow people to access unconscious issues?
  • Can you share a story of someone who has greatly benefited from the ACTIVATE program?
  • How do you help a person identify what truly makes their soul light up and get them back into alignment so that they can experience peace and joy?

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Tanya Cole-Lesnick: How “Energetic Clutter” Keeps You From Achieving the Inner and Outer Alignment Needed to Lead a Life That Honors Your Truest Self






I hope this finds each of you very well. I’m delighted to have the pleasure of interviewing psychotherapist and personal development coach Tanya Cole Lesnik, who will be speaking to us from Cortlandt Manor, New York. Tanya had her first experience with a therapist in her mid-twenties when she sought the answer to why her love life wasn’t living up to her hopes, and she wanted to understand what was getting in the way. One-on-one therapy was followed up by group therapy that significantly transformed Tanya’s life because not only did she meet and marry her husband during that time, but she also made the decision to leave her career as a graphic designer and become a therapist going on to receive a Master’s degree in Social Work from NYU and deciding to dedicate her life to helping others lead lives that they truly love.

During her nearly three decades as a licensed clinical social worker, and psychotherapist turned coach Tanya has run hundreds of groups and she has found therapeutic groups to be an incredibly powerful way to foster emotional growth. She has now combined her two most powerful tools, group and coaching work to create her transformational coaching program called Activate. I’m looking forward to talking with Tanya about feeling unlovable before she began working with a therapist, how group therapy changed her relationship with herself, and the energetic clutter that keeps people from growing and meaning in their lives.

How group work helps people touch on your unconscious issues, her transformational coaching program called Activate, and so much more for an insights-filled interview that can light the path to healing, growth and new meaning for many of us. Full disclosure, I myself have greatly benefited from both psychotherapy and coaching. I can state without reservation that they have significantly contributed to the full-hearted joyful place I now happily inhabit in my life.


Grief and Rebirth: Finding the Joy in Life | Tanya Cole-Lesnick | Energetic Clutter


Tanya, a warm welcome to the show.

I’m excited to be here and already swept away with this energy, which is amazing.

Feeling Unlovable

Thank you so much. I trust that everyone reading is also going to get swept away because we have many wonderful, insightful things to tell them about. As an introduction to you, and we can get them to know who Tanya is, how old were you when you became aware of feeling unlovable and what contributed to those feelings?

Multilayered, I was probably ten-ish maybe when I was tween age and teasing and kids. I grew up with a mother who struggled a lot with anxiety, and that came out as anger and rage. The combination led to me trying to call it right, people-pleasing stuff started early on and feeling I had to curate. Everything had to go through and I had to decide my brain. I had to decide, “Is that going to present me as cool or not that I thought of it clearly in those words?” Very early on I had a hint of that, then as I got older and was interested in meeting boys and then men, I struggled with some of the romantic connections and questioned my lovability even more so at that point.

I could identify with that because you get messages when you’re growing up. I did too. They become a part of you until you change that internal dialogue. Do you want to tell us about the feelings of shame you grappled with when you began one-on-one therapy to overcome your feelings of unlovability? Not only do you feel unlovable, but now you go into therapy and you’re feeling ashamed of the fact that you need therapy.


Grief and Rebirth: Finding the Joy in Life | Tanya Cole-Lesnick | Energetic Clutter


It took me a long time. This was many years ago, and at that time there was a lot of stigma connected to therapy. Still some, but way better these days. It was New York City, which was probably the best place for therapy back in those days. Still, I struggled with thinking two things. 1) My problems weren’t legitimate enough, and also the fact that I had what felt like big enough problems that I was considering therapy. Both of those felt like I was dismissing myself, but I felt shame. It was a tricky way of feeling to have to try and navigate.

It was an extension of the low self-esteem that you were having. How did group therapy change your relationship with yourself and what did your first experience with group therapy teach you about what you called the human experience?

At first, when I finally did decide to go to therapy, I went to therapy with this wonderful therapist named Bonnie, then the shame didn’t feel present in the room with her Right away. I started to share some more intimate stories about my life. I was vulnerable and she was lovely. I felt very safe in that space. Healing started pretty right away. She suggested adding group therapy and she did both. I met with her individually, but she ran the group as well. That was terrifying, the idea of it, but she encouraged me to go. I decided that I would give it a go. I was intrigued too I went in.

My very first experience was that she did not introduce me to the group. Here’s a group that already exists and they were talking to each other and they clearly knew each other. I felt uncomfortable and shy. I was shy on a good day. I felt uncomfortable and shy. The leader, Bonnie, did not introduce me. I sat quietly through almost the whole group, then finally towards the end she said, “Tanya, why are you so quiet?” I shared a little. I said hello to people and it was as if they noticed I was there that they hadn’t even noticed me before. As I considered why she didn’t introduce me, it occurred to me that she was helping me develop my own voice. This idea that I was going to have to rescue myself in the context of being in this environment. It was a tricky lesson to start with, but was powerful.

Did she later discuss that with you? Did you ever ask her why she took her time?

I did a combination of individuals and groups. I’m thinking probably, but I don’t remember for sure if we did. I know that I did process it that way.

She was trying to get you to empower yourself to speak up. You’d think that I had some therapy myself. Please share the story. You made a short documentary. It’s on your website. How did that inspire you? What were you doing then and how did this inspire you to professionally go out on your own?

Throughout my career, sometimes I’ve been on my own. At other times, I’ve worked for other people. During this time I was working at a wellness center doing mostly therapy. We did some retreats, and I loved my boss, but when I was making the documentary, I literally heard a little voice that said, “I think it’s time for you to go out on your own.” The job I had at the time was my dream job. I was not feeling unhappy in that work situation, but there was something about expressing myself creatively as I was making this documentary that touched my heart in a way that I hadn’t been connecting to my heart in that way as I was working for somebody else because it was still somebody else’s voice, even though it was my voice. It helped me have that experience again of connecting to my voice. When I heard that little suggestion, “Maybe it’s time,” I couldn’t unring that bell.

That’s what happens. You pay attention. It’s not your voice. What prompted the documentary? Who asked you to make it?

I decided I wanted to do it.

You did it on your own.

Even though I was working for somebody else, I always loved doing group work people are afraid of groups often. I think in my mind, it was like, “I want to make something that could help people understand, get to know me a little bit, trust me a little bit, and perhaps feel brave enough to consider a group.” My daughter’s friend was a cinematographer and I used to have a professional video. One thing led to another. I had a couple of conversations, and then that creative part of me started to be beautiful and revved up.

A Transformational Journey

Now you’ve decided to go out on your own and you had to handle people-pleasing issues that got triggered. I know in our audience there are people who have people-pleasing issues. You handle the activation of your nervous system. I know everyone can relate to that. You had to learn to reconnect to the more creative parts of yourself. could you tell us a little bit about this journey?

People pleasing is something I always gravitated towards. It is like what I shared with you about when I was a child and started to do some of that. For a long time, I didn’t even understand that people-pleasing was a way of abandoning myself. I think at the time I thought, “I’m a nice person. I like to be nice to other people as I got more the work that I do and understanding that,” I was able to start recognizing, “This is something that comes up for me and it’s uncomfortable if I don’t honor what feels like my way of being nice to other people, but I abandoned myself.”

As I’m learning about it and able to start setting more boundaries for myself and recognize that checking in with myself is an important part of my own process. That was something I was learning to do, but it can be more potent at times. As I’m deciding I’m going to leave this job that I love, where people are depending on me in this job situation, I was like a director of client programs I had.

Now you have guilt on top of everything else.

My guilt was coming up and the people pleasing, even though I had this thought that was connected to my heart, “Maybe it’s time to go on your own,” as I started the process, I was like, “How can I leave them? They need me right now. Somebody else had left close to that same time.” It was terrible timing. I heard myself saying, “Maybe I should stay a little while longer. It’s not good timing to realize, “There’s that people-pleasing thing. It’s important that I honor myself here. Interesting conversation. My boss was aware of limiting beliefs and those kinds of ideas. I knew that she would support me through it even though she was in a more difficult situation because I was deciding to leave. It was definitely a complicated thing, but I knew that I needed to go through the discomfort to get to a place where I was honoring that calling from my heart.

Your boss was a tremendous role model for you because in spite of it hurting her in certain ways, she was emotionally mature enough to understand and to let you go and bless your journey, which is tremendous.

I run retreats with her now. We came full circle and found something else, which you never know if you don’t start, you can follow your heart. You don’t know what’s ahead for you.

If you don't start to follow your heart, you don't know what's in ahead for you. Share on X

Why Group Therapy?

We don’t know, but there is a plan. Tell everyone in what ways the therapeutic groups are an incredibly powerful way to foster emotional growth. If someone is thinking, “Do I go to individual therapy or should I get into group therapy? Why group therapy?”

The thing about the group is that when you’re connecting to other people on their personal growth journeys, it helps you touch on your own humanity because you can see yourself reflected in other people. One of the things that I talk a lot about in my group is, “What’s resonating for you as you’re hearing each other, share your own personal journeys?” We pay very close attention to all the overlap. I think that knowing you’re not alone, touching on things that you didn’t bring into the room that day, you weren’t necessarily coming into the group saying, “I’ve got this particular issue that I want to talk about.” I mean, you might’ve been, but there are things that come up when other people talk that help you learn a little bit more about your own layers. That can be helpful and touch on some unconscious things.

When you're connecting to other people on their personal growth journeys, it helps you touch on your own humanity because you can see yourself reflected in them. Share on X

There’s the fact that people start to get to know you. As we’re talking with each other about our journeys, we celebrate when somebody is taking some steps that we know are hard, even if they’re tiny. We talk about how huge even the tiny steps are. There’s a lot of celebration and reflecting back. As we know each other and see each other grow, we can say things to each other like, “You’ve come such a long way. Your energy is so  different.” Maybe somebody used to be much more uptight and they’re starting to relax and be calmer and we can see it. It’s palpable. That can be powerful.



It’s a tremendous validation of their work and how they’re changing and improving. For those who are going, “Am I a candidate for group therapy?” What would you call identifiers for people to think about if that would indicate that it could be helpful to them?

When somebody’s done some therapy and they have identified their stories and they hear themselves knowing the content, but change is starting to feel a little bit tricky for them to make, then group can be something where there’s a little bit more information coming up because like what I was sharing with you earlier about some of that unconscious stuff. That can be helpful. Somebody’s already done some work they’re not as raw, because I think if somebody’s going through a healing process and they’re very early on in the healing process group is probably going to be a little bit more difficult to start with. Individual and getting to know the things that you carry can be a great place to start. When you have more awareness of what your things are, a group can be a way to touch on things that are a little tricky to touch on when you’re an individual.

I relate to it, not only for myself, but my husband was in group therapy for years. He had a very difficult experience. He had to get custody of his children and all of this. A psychiatrist he was working with suggested he get into group therapy. He used to call them his committee. He would meet with them once a week. He’d say he couldn’t wait to see them, to talk, for them to bounce back and give him feedback and all of that thing helped him with what he needed to face. The other thing you talk about is clearing energetic clutter and how it keeps people from growth and meaning in their lives. Would you like to tell us about that?

Energetic Clutter

That term is something that came up literally while I was cleaning out my kitchen cabinets and connecting the idea of I was going through spices and there were some old spices in there, seeing they were taking up space, they weren’t useful anymore. I was never going to use them. They were taking up space and clogging up the cabinets. I realized, “We do that with energy too. When we don’t look at what we’re carrying around, sometimes our energy is getting depleted by certain things that are not serving us, that are not even our truth anymore.” What I define as energetic clutter, are all the things that demand our attention, time and energy. They’re not helping us move the needle towards growth or meaning or how we want to feel.

Grief and Rebirth: Finding the Joy in Life | Tanya Cole-Lesnick | Energetic Clutter

Energetic Clutter: Energetic clutter refers to all of the things that demand our focus and attention, but don’t move the needle towards true growth, meaning, or how you want to feel.


If we go back to people pleasing as an example of that, it could be as I am abandoning myself and pleasing others, it’s very depleting, “I’m engaged in this behavior and in this pattern where I’m getting depleted. I want more in my life, but I’m exhausted because I’m busy pleasing other people.” That’s an example. There are lots of limiting beliefs that we can carry around. It’s the pairing of limiting beliefs and the behaviors that go along with them. When we’re automatic,  keep going and don’t question some of these beliefs that we’ve been carrying around, it can take up so much space that we’re not able to connect to our hearts in a way that’s going to be much more meaningful and satisfying for us.



I liken it to carrying a backpack with you that’s loaded with stuff that you don’t need. When you do all this healing and you drop the backpack, it changes your life for the better. I know you have this wonderful transformational coaching program called Activate that allows people to access deeper and even unconscious issues through hearing the stories and experiences of others. Can you talk about Activate and some of those powerful factors that influence our lives?

Activate is a combination like what my experience was when I had a combination of individual and group to help me grow on my personal growth journey. I’ve had other times in my life when I’ve connected to either coaches or groups and that kind of thing. I offer a combination. Often people feel a little afraid to start with a group. Most people come first individually. That gives us an opportunity to get to know each other and start to identify what some of the energetic clutters somebody might be carrying around with them might be. Get started to get clear on what the work might look like. When somebody’s ready, and this is a conversation that’s ongoing, and we keep talking about that, we’ll add group therapy or group coaching into it.


Grief and Rebirth: Finding the Joy in Life | Tanya Cole-Lesnick | Energetic Clutter


My group runs every other week. If somebody starts with the individual, often they’ll go individual and group together for a little while, and then when they’re feeling ready, we will remove the individual. It’ll be a group that continues on. When somebody is new to the group, the individual is helpful to process what came up during group that maybe they didn’t feel ready yet to share within the group context. We can talk it through.

Not only is the person sharing some of their experiences with me, but we’ve also now had a shared experience. One of the things, as a private clinician where you are only seeing one person at a time, they’ll tell you about their lives and what goes on for them socially, but you don’t always have the opportunity to see it. That’s powerful as well for me to be able to experience somebody in a group situation, somebody responding in a group situation, and to hear later what was going on in their insides as they were having this experience it’s a powerful healing thing. We decide together what would be helpful to bring back to the group, what would be helpful to share with the group, and what you feel you’d rather keep privately. We go through some of those questions while somebody’s on their journey. It’s in that combination of the two together that I think it can be such a powerful part of transformation.

The ACTIVATE Program

Do you have a story to share with us about someone who’s benefited from your Activate program, like an example?

I have a client who comes to mind who struggled a lot with overdoing, like brilliant, amazing, doing well in her career, a mom, volunteering, doing tons of things and amazing at it all, but also overdoing and exhausted. Her way of responding to the feeling of being exhausted was alcohol and losing her temper. She had this cycle of over-functioning and doing amazingly well. People always said things to her like, “I don’t know how you do it all,” then at the end of it, she would struggle with some of the self-care stuff because there were too many things on her plate. She was trying to get too many things done and taken care of.

Through our process, she was able to start to identify the limiting belief and the associated behaviors, the energetic clutter of this overdoing thing. She had this connection to her worth being connected to how much she does. For a long time, that drove her behavior. When she was able to start recognizing that the overdoing was directly related to the drinking and losing the temper, and starting to be able to name that and get some feedback from other people in a group around that, it started to release.

It didn’t have such a strong pull on her anymore. It was no longer her automatic behavior. It didn’t mean it didn’t come up from time to time, but she was able to, she did various things with the drinking. Sometimes she stopped completely. Other times she explored, whether could she be somewhere in the middle with that and also learned her own triggers for the anger. She got good at taking better care of herself, going for walks, taking baths and going down energetically, even when the groups are done virtually and in the Zoom room.

There was always this sense when she would hop on that there was some intensity and there was an edge often when she was in it. As she was starting to work through it, it felt different to have her hop on. There was a lot more calmness and the ability to not get sucked into some of these old dynamics that would get her emotion.

The beauty of a group, especially when I think it’s guided by someone like you, is that there’s no judgment. Judgment is something that people are afraid of becoming a part of a group like that because they’re afraid they’re going to be judged. There’s a tremendous amount of acceptance and lack of judgment in these groups, which fosters growth. Saying that, give us a description of your virtual individual and group coaching, your in-person weekend retreats, transformational intensive and what else would you like us to know about?

Individual is a very customized process people come in and they start to talk about what they want to work on and what some of their struggles have been. We usually start with that, then I often talk to people about where they want to put their energy during the time between our sessions. Sometimes I’ll meet with somebody weekly. Sometimes I’ll meet with them every other week, and they’ll work on some things in between and we’ll talk about that. At the moment, I’m in the process of developing an app to help people as a tool to stay connected to their personal growth journeys because there can be a little bit of vagueness of, “ I’m leaving the session. I’m going to be focusing on my people-pleasing behaviors.” It’s very easy to get swallowed back up into day-to-day life and lose sight of some of that.

When you have a lot of energetic clutter, it impacts how you feel day-to-day. Share on X

People work on some of their things then when they come to the group, I offer a topic to people. Once they start a group, they get a topic between sessions. The group is every other week. I run small groups. It could be anywhere from  3 to 10 people in a group. We’ll talk about what’s been going on. We catch each other up, but there’s always a topic that I’ve asked people to think about for a week. Groups every other week, but I’ll send them the topic between weeks. The most recent topic was about faith. How do you have faith in your personal growth journey? Some of where you’re putting your energy and attention, how do you know it’s the right place? We talk about what came up for people and catch each other up about where they are, and we pay attention to what’s resonating for each other. We respond to that.

That’s what I do with groups. Some people, as I said, stop doing the individuals. Some people do it as needed. If there’s something that comes up that they want to process separately, then they can reach out to me. It doesn’t have to be real rigid. Retreats are my favorite. I always think of retreats as a group on steroids. We’re doing one with my boss, the woman that I mentioned who used to be my boss.

Retreats are like group therapy sessions on steroids. Share on X

She’s going to love that you mentioned her during this interview.

She and I run these retreats together. We call them Deep Reset Retreats. We help people very deliberately release some of the things that they’re identifying, some of this energetic clutter. We work on releasing some of those and then starting to create and build, “What do you want for yourself? What speaks to your heart? What lights you up?” Help people in that process start to create that picture for themselves and to hear from each other. During that time, these retreats are two full days. We fall in love with each other.

It’s such a beautiful experience, then a lot of people redo them. As we continue to offer the retreats, they come back. That’s amazing as well to be able to see people on their journeys or some people work with and then they come to the retreat. Being able to be together on all these different layers helps us connect in such a good way.

You so the retreats at a physical locale. Most of your other work is online.

The retreats are in person. The rest of the work I do online, virtually. We’ve been doing the Deep Reset Retreat third coming up in October. We do them at this beautiful farm in Cold Spring, New York. It’s like an old farmhouse on the property. We get the property to ourselves. It’s a beautiful old building and we love it. It feels very magical. The two that we’ve done there already both times that we’ve driven up these windy roads to get there have been foggy. As we’re going through our releasing part, it’s been foggy. As we’re getting through that part, the sun comes. Sometimes it happens.

A Life Worth Living

Someone’s pulling for you there. Tanya, you help your clients to heal, transform, and to build their lives. They’re genuinely excited to be living. Why do you need to go through what you need to go through and face? Why is it worth it to heal that stuff?

When you don’t, there’s such an experience of, “Is this all there is?” It’s hard for people to feel satisfied with their lives, feel connected to other people and feel like they’re honoring themselves, their hearts and their energy levels. When we don’t do that, we can be an automatic pilot, struggling to feel enjoyment, joy and peace in our lives. The healing is such an important way to enjoy our time on this.



I think of it as a way to set yourself free from a lot that’s been pulling you down. Do you have an offer for the members of our audience?

Healing is such an important way to enjoy our time. It’s a way to set yourself free. Share on X

I offer a free twenty-minute discovery session, which can be scheduled right on my website if somebody wants to do that or you can reach out to me through the website. You can find my email if you would rather reach out. You can schedule it yourself. I would love to talk to anybody who’s considering whether they might want to explore group or Activate.

How do you help a person identify what truly makes her soul light up and get her back into alignment so she can experience joy and peace? What is your personal tip for finding joy in life?

What I talk so much about is getting quiet so that you can connect to your heart and your intuition. When we’re busy and we’re caught in the hamster wheel and oo, or even the opposite of that and crashing, then we’re losing sight of what goes on in our hearts. To create space where you can connect to your heart, notice what bubbles up and what’s starting to speak to you. When you can then take some of those steps, you’re noticing your heart, you’re taking steps then notice what continues to come up as you’re taking some of these action steps, when are you excited? When are you feeling lost because you’re in a state of flow and it’s amazing? When are you feeling disconnected and, “Eh,” about what you’re doing and starting to pay attention to those layers?

That will bring you joy. In closing, I love this testimonial about you and your work for Martha Beck, who is a bestselling author and regular contributor to She says, “Tanya uses a one-of-a-kind combination of experience, intuition, personal warmth, and intellect to liberate clients from self-defeating ideas, habits, and life situations. For almost three decades of counseling and coaching experience, Tanya has developed an array of instincts and skills that are targeted and very powerful. Her personality, as everyone can see, invites people to open up.”

“When they do, Tanya knows how to seize that moment and create positive changes. She makes an excellent guide and traveling companion for anyone who wants to change from the inside out.” Tanya, my heartfelt thanks for all you are doing to help people move forward in their lives, to have lives filled with peace, joy, and meaning, and for this insights-filled interview that has surely lit the path to healing, growth, and new meaning for many in our audience. Here is a loving reminder, everyone, make sure to follow us and like us on social at @IireneSWeinberg, Instagram, Facebook, and everywhere you get your podcasts, especially YouTube. As I like to say, to be continued. Thank you, Tanya. Many blessings, and bye for now.

Thank you so much. This is such a pleasure.

Thank you. It’s great to know you. We’re almost neighbors. I’m a New Jersey girl.  As I like to say, to be continued.


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About Tanya Cole

Grief and Rebirth: Finding the Joy in Life | Tanya Cole-Lesnick | Energetic ClutterTanya Cole-Lesnick has been a psychotherapist (licensed clinical social worker) and coach since 1995. She received her master’s degree in social work from New York University after group therapy changed her life. She has extensive experience in outpatient hospital mental health, private practice, and wellness center settings. From those experiences over the years she has identified her most important focus—helping people to clear energetic clutter so they can focus on what matters most to them. She does this by helping clients to access and honor their truth, to change habits that don’t serve them, and to heal faulty narratives so that they are living in alignment inside and out. Her work revolves around a combination of intimate therapeutic groups and individual sessions, as the sharing of inner worlds and being human together in a safe space—collectively and individually—is an incredibly powerful combination that leads to lasting transformation.


I began listening to your podcast recently. Wow! What a story you have. You exemplify everything the spirit world is trying to convey to the world.

Chris Lippincott


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