How Have Men Been Socialized to Avoid the Topic of Grief?

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How Have Men Been Socialized to Avoid the Topic of Grief?

I hope this finds each of you so very well. I’m speaking to you from my studio in West Orange, New Jersey. I could not be more delighted to have this opportunity to once again interview author Marv Weidner, who has an undergraduate degree in political science and economics and a graduate degree in theology.

Marv is the Founder of Managing Results, a strategic planning company based in Gunnison, Colorado. He has served as a volunteer with Living Journeys, a not-for-profit organization that provides services and support to cancer patients and their families and caregivers. A few years ago, I had the privilege of interviewing Marv about his profoundly moving and insightful book When the Rocks Sing. The book chronicles the devastating loss of his beloved wife Marty, who passed away after nineteen years of marriage, and the extraordinary life lessons he discovered while navigating grief, building resilience, and ultimately rebuilding his life.

Marv dedicated two years to grief therapy following Marty’s passing, and then spent another year and a half working with a spiritual and intimacy coach to open his heart to love again. This transformative journey led him to Charla, an incredible woman who had also endured profound loss. Together, they embraced the courage to keep their hearts open, finding love and partnership in one another.

Marv and Charla relocated from Colorado to New Mexico, where Marv remains deeply engaged with his consulting practice and extensive travels. Drawing inspiration from his volunteer work with Living Journeys in Colorado, Marv is planning to host workshops for hospice staff and volunteers. These workshops aim to provide a deeper understanding of the emotional journey grieving spouses and family members are experiencing and how to be with them through the process in ways that facilitate embracing their feelings. Additionally, Marv’s efforts will focus on helping those in grief discover the resilience needed to move forward and rebuild their lives.

I’m looking forward to talking with Marv about the culture of silence when it comes to men in grief, what it is like to love life and face death, resilience as a way of life, the importance of living with an open heart, the power of letting go, of control, the toxic trio of doubts, guilt, and regrets that can keep the grieving stuck and unable to move forward, Marv’s playbook on how to help others who are grieving, and more for another inspiring, touching, and wisdom-filled interview with the remarkable Marv Weidner.

Marv, welcome back to the show.

It’s such a pleasure to be back with you. I want to express my gratitude to you for everything you’re doing through your writing, your show, and your groups. You’ve touched this all so deeply. It’s a great pleasure to be back with you again. Thank you.

Living Life To The Fullest Through Zen

Thank you. We’re a mutual admiration society. Let’s start by introducing you once again to our audience, and then I want to touch on your Zen studies, which is to face death at any moment and live life fully at all times. Can you explain the challenging and rewarding way to live that you have adopted in your life?

My wife Marty, who passed from cancer in 2017, and I had studied in a Zen Buddhist temple in Hawaii, the Chozen-ji temple. It was a phrase that they had shared with us many years ago. It was so powerful that Marty had written it on a card, putting it up on a mantle in our living room, so that we could see it every day after we learned that she had cancer. This is a very challenging and powerful way to live because it affirms the impermanence of life on one hand, but it also calls us to live in the moment and to live life fully, even knowing that we might face death at any time. It’s poignant. It prompts in me a sense of freedom and urgency in living in the moment, living now, and appreciating every day of life.

It’s a beautiful way for all of us to live because we’re all eventually facing death. What are you doing till you get there?

That’s right. It’s inevitable.

Are you embracing life, or are you going into some swamp of suffering somewhere?

That’s the idea of living fully at all times while also knowing that you might die at any time. It condenses time. It eases us into the future, knowing that we can live life fully no matter how long we have.

Men’s Culture Of Silence

It’s a beautiful way to live. Too bad more people don’t do that. Hopefully, some who are reading will think this is a good idea. That way, when you do crossover or transition, you have fewer regrets because you have lived your life fully. I was fascinated by the fact that you speak of the culture of silence when it comes to the topic of men and grief. Teach us. How are men socialized to avoid this topic of grief, what does that do to them, and how do we undo this?

I was raised as a male in this American society. I was raised not to cry and not to show my emotions. Even when the dog I grew up with and was my dog for eighteen years, my constant companion, died, my dad said, “Stop crying. Men don’t cry.” It was such a poignant moment to remind me that I was raised not to cry, not to show emotion, and not to show sadness or fear, even. That kind of socialization comes hard when you’re faced with a great loss because the emotions will flood you. It will flood through your life and needs to be expressed.

I know from my male friends that this is not uncommon. Many men in our society are raised not to show emotion. We may not even know how we feel. Without the ability to express emotion, we can get stuck in grief. Those feelings, if they’re not expressed, can stick with us. They can stick right down into us, and they’re operating in the background without us even knowing about it. Without being able to express the feelings that come with grief, it can make us sick.

None of us needs to go through grief or face our losses alone. In fact, it is almost impossible to go through grief alone. Share on X

It can make you physically ill.

It can make us physically ill. We can express anger or resentment and not even know why.

I’ll bet a lot of men displace these unmet emotions onto other situations in their lives or onto other people in their lives, and they don’t know that’s the root of the cause.

Unless they’re conscious of how they feel and give themselves permission to express those feelings that come naturally with grief and loss, that’s what will happen. They’ll go on with their life and not understand why they’re having so much difficulty in their relationships, why they’re not well, why they’re not happy, and why their life seems to be stuck.

I found that the most important thing for me was to express those feelings as they came up. I know that a lot of men struggle with that because of this culture of silence and because of how we’re raised, but we don’t have to stay that way. We can find ways through support groups. They give us a place and a way to express those feelings in a safe place and in an appropriate way, so that we can see those emotions, feel those emotions, express those emotions, and keep moving forward with life.

Unfortunately, there’s also a stigma, a lot of times, about therapy. A lot of men are resistant to therapy to even acknowledging their feelings, let alone going to someone to help them with those feelings.

That’s true. I had to overcome some of that myself. I’m very familiar.

They can’t admit that they may need some help. They’re supposed to be brave and strong.

Independent, self-sufficient, and all that stuff. None of us needs to go through grief alone. None of us needs to face our losses alone. In fact, it’s almost impossible to go through grief alone. I’m a person who’s very willing to reach out and ask for help. I’m a person who’s willing to express my emotions. The first place I went back to work as a consultant after Marty passed was in a town in Southern New Mexico called Las Cruces.

Going into the engagement, I had to tell people in my meetings when I was facilitating that there may be times when I need to excuse myself, go outside, and cry. I said, “If the feelings come up, I’m not going to suppress them. I’m going to excuse myself, and I’ll be back.” They accepted. They understood that’s what I needed to do as part of my grief process. If we let people know that we’re going to be expressing feelings where we might be having dinner and I may need to excuse myself, shed a tear, or share a memory, people will accept that people will understand what you’re going through.

Keeping A Reservoir Of Resiliency

It’s wonderful that you can give people a heads-up like that. A lot of people don’t understand, “I’m having an emotion,” or, “This is happening to me. Sorry, give me a moment,” because they’re not even in touch with it. It’s so important. The other thing you talk about is how we come into the world with a reservoir of resiliency. You have ways we can keep that reservoir full for when we need it, especially when we lose a loved one. Could you address that for us, too?

Do not be afraid as a man to reach out and ask for some help. It is not a sign of weakness but a sign of strength. Share on X

Yes. This is a very timely question because our daughter had a brand-new baby. He was premature by six weeks, and he’s doing great. We come into the world with an innate desire to live, thrive, and grow, and become fully human. We come into the world with that resiliency and a desire to live. My experience and observation are that there are ways to keep that reservoir of resilience filling, even though we face hard times.

Number one, pay attention to relationships. Our relationships are the most important thing that we have. Keep those relationships in good order and emotionally accessible with each other. I never want to die wishing that I had told someone that I love them. Keep those relationships, those friendships, and those family relationships open, loving, and current. Don’t let them get stale.

Next, stay connected with your community. None of us needs to live alone. None of us needs to face these hard losses alone. Staying connected to our community is another way to refill that reservoir of resiliency, the ability to face hard things, and the ability to face losses. Also, take care of your mind. Be good to your mind. Try to let go of the fears that may stymie you or cause you to shrink from life. Keep your heart open to what life might bring you. Keep your body healthy.

Sometimes, we need healing, therapy, or something to help us do that, too, right?

Absolutely. That’s been a big part of my story. Don’t be afraid as a man to reach out and ask for some help. It’s not a sign of weakness. It’s a sign of strength.

I think it’s a sign of strength, too, and a sign of courage. A lot of people are afraid to face their feelings or their issues.

That’s right. Allowing yourself to be vulnerable takes a lot of courage and strength, but it’s also critical to our healing and our ability to continue to move forward with life. I would say to my fellow men, “Be vulnerable. Be willing to ask for help.”

Letting Go Of The Things Holding You Back

To be willing to ask for help, to me, is the biggest plus. If someone came to me and said, “I’m willing to ask for help,” you’re giving me good data about who you are. Many people have a problem with letting go, which is not a well-understood aspect of dealing with grief. They have all these doubts, guilt, regrets, and all these different things that they need help moving through. Could you address the letting-go issue and how that holds us back from happiness, the power of letting go of control, which is huge, and the power of letting go of both the past and the future? We will then get to that toxic trio of doubts. I’m going to let go and let you talk to me about letting go.

Let me be clear that I’m not talking about letting go of the love that you have or the person that you’ve lost. I’m not talking about letting go of the memories. What I’m talking about letting go of are the things that hold us back from living life fully. Letting go of control is a big thing. First of all, control is a myth. I control myself on a good day, but I don’t control anything else. I don’t control other people. I don’t control the events of my life. I might influence them by the choices I make, but control is a myth. We don’t control life, right? I

I agree. I always like to say that the only thing we have control over is our own choices and how we react to things. That’s about it.

We always have that control over our own choices. If you hear yourself say, “What I’m afraid of,” it’s a clue that you’re living with a lot of fear. After the loss, if the fear of the future is holding you back, think about why you’re afraid of the future. Why not let that fear go? Why not allow yourself to live life fully and embrace it as it comes, and live life as it was meant to be lived? It’s also often the case that people have regrets. You may have regrets and guilt about the past, but those things don’t necessarily have to stay with you. You can let them go to the past.

One of the ways that I’ve found to let go of the fear of the future and let go of the regrets of the past is to be present in the moment. You’re very powerful when you can be present in the moment and let go of that fear and those regrets. I find that anything that helps me be present in the moment, whether that’s meditation, prayer, being with loved ones, are times when we’re free from those fears, those regrets, and the guilt. If we can let go of those things, we can live life fully again.

It’s so true, as well as that whole thing about letting go of control. First of all, do you have control of your future? You could plan as much as you want, but life happens.

We’re physical people living in a physical world. Health issues come. Socioeconomic pressures are always there. The other thing I’d say about this, and it’s fairly fundamental to what Marty, my late wife, taught me, is that happiness is a decision. We can decide to be happy. Happiness doesn’t happen to you by chance. Happiness is a state of mind and a state of feeling about life. No matter what might come your way, if you’ve already decided to be happy, it puts everything in a different light. It puts everything in a context of, “I’ll deal with that, but I’m still very determined and committed to being a happy human being.”

When you’re happy, that means you allow joy to come into your life. A lot of people have this idea, and you’d agree with me, of, “If I have had this terrible loss and I am grieving, I will never feel joy again.” That’s not true. That’s something that happened to you in life, but that doesn’t cancel out that other things can happen for you in life that will bring you great joy and great happiness. Both of them can exist as you work your way through it.

After the car accident and my husband passed next to me, my son said, “There’s been nothing worse, Mom, than seeing you in total despair, and nothing better than seeing you be able to have joy again.” I was in counseling. I was working through and giving myself permission while I was crying, being upset, and everything else. Good things were also coming into my life. I needed to embrace and bring them in.

We can do two things at once. We can grieve and allow happiness and joy into our lives. For me, it requires living with an open heart and allowing what life can give us to come in. The fear of the future is the thing that will stop those beautiful things from coming into our lives. We can get stuck in the past or stuck with fear. We don’t have to do that. We can let those things go and live fully again.
   

Some of that stuck is old recordings that we’ve inherited from other people with their wounds and their problems. Part of the healing is to let go of those old recordings.

That’s right. Father, mother, preacher, teacher. You’re right. A lot of our thought habits about how we think, whether we operate out of fear or whether we have a narrative about our life, that maybe we’re unlucky or whatever that old script is that you mentioned, or whatever that narrative is, we make that up. We don’t have to live that way. We can let that go. We can pull that tape out and throw it away.

How To Ungrieve Losses

Stop being weighed down by it. I also want to ask you how to ungrieve losses. You talk about how the ungrieved losses stack up and create a cumulative impact of grief. I’m thinking about all those ungrieved losses that people haven’t let go of, and they create a cumulative impact of greed. Let’s talk about why it is important to grieve losses that occur and how you deal with anger, which is also part of the grief experience. A lot of men, in particular, grapple with, feel, and face that as part of their grief experience.

Anger is a secondary emotion. What are we angry about? Are we angry that our loved one left us? Are we angry that we are feeling abandoned? Are we angry that our future that we had planned is gone? Are we angry that this is unfair? We’re like, “Why does this happen to me?” That anger is very often a cover-up for feeling very vulnerable and a cover-up for feeling a real sense of loss, pain, and sadness. I encourage men to look beyond anger and, first of all, let go of it, because it’s going to hold you to the past. It’s not going to let you experience life fully. Anger is oftentimes a cover-up for what you’re feeling. You’re right. Men oftentimes express anger when what they’re feeling is sadness.

Sadness of fear and loss of control.

You don’t have any control. As you know from the book, I didn’t have regrets or guilt. I experienced a profound amount of sadness at Marty’s passing. What I found is that as that sadness came up, I let myself feel it. It hurt. I let myself express it and share it with others. That’s what I was experiencing. It doesn’t stay there. You can express it and allow it to be released. What I knew was that if I stuffed that, if I didn’t express that, or if I tried to suppress it or ignore it, what would happen is that I would end up getting depressed.

Also, perhaps sick or physically ill because you’re harboring that in you. Where’s it going to go?

It is not our place to judge anyone. We are all human beings trying to do the best we can in this world. Share on X

I believe that if I hadn’t allowed myself to express those feelings, I may not be here.

I’m glad that you did, personally.

Thank you. That’s very kind of you and very sweet.

I’m so big on healing myself. It saved my life, also.

I can tell. We’re glad that you did.

Thank you.

What I experienced after Marty passed is that through all the grief counseling that I did for two years following her passing, I found that I was also grieving past losses from my own family of origin. I found that part of my sadness was some old losses that I hadn’t faced and hadn’t embraced. I’m a big advocate for embracing the feelings as they come and embracing our losses, whether it’s a loss of a family member or whether it’s a loss of a job. Whatever the loss is, face it as it is. Face it as a loss, deal with it, and embrace it.

Marv’s Playbook On Grief

If you need some help to deal with it, get the help. The other thing I want to ask you is, you’ve written a playbook that describes how to help others who are grieving. Do you want to explain why it is important to stay quiet, listen, let them be in order to enhance their authenticity, and be with that grieving person more than do for that grieving person? Do you want to talk to us about that?

Yes, I do. When I was grieving, the thing that my grief counselor, Carol, did for me more than anything else was be with me and allow me to talk, allow me to share my emotions, and allow me to share the memories and the fears that I had about my future. Being able to express all of that in a safe, secure, supportive, loving environment was what gave me a chance to heal.

When we’re with someone who is grieving, it’s important to try not to fix them and try not to change the way they’re feeling. Oftentimes, when we’re with a grieving person, when someone is experiencing a loss, we’re uncomfortable in our culture with that. We don’t know what to say. We don’t know what to do, so we say stupid things.

What I’ve found is that it taught me how to be quiet, how to be still, and focus on the other person. When we’re with someone who’s grieving, it’s not about us. It’s about them. It teaches us how to be generous with our time and our presence, and allow them to be. This is something Carol taught me. Often, what people say is almost hurtful, and they’re well-meaning. They’re trying to fix our sadness, our anger, or our guilt.

We’ve made them uncomfortable, so they’re trying to get us to help them in a way, right?

That’s right. When we’re with someone who’s grieving, we learn how to be more focused on them and care more about them than we do ourselves in those moments. It’s quite a way to learn how to be compassionate, how to be generous, and how to be caring, and focus less on ourselves and more on someone else.

The Right Way To Suspend Judgment

That’s beautiful. There’s another part that you talk about, the importance of suspending judgment and how grieving gets you even to know yourself a little better when you’re helping someone else who’s grieving.

When we’re with someone who’s grieving, it’s important that we focus on them, not on ourselves, and that we suspend any critical judgments of how they are or how they’re handling it. I remember people saying to me, “Shouldn’t you get over this?” or, “Why are you still grieving this a year later?” or, “Why are you still in that house? Why are you doing what you’re doing?” We suspend judgment by not questioning them and accepting how they’re expressing themselves.

We might say something to them if we feel like they’re being self-destructive. If they’re turning to alcohol or something like that or doing something that’s destructive, we might want to intervene and say something, but by and large, it’s about them and not us. It’s not our place to judge anyone. From my Buddhist perspective, we’re all human beings trying to do the best we can here.

It’s incredibly important that when someone is expressing their feelings or their memories that they are allowed to say those things when they’re ready to say them. If you interrupt them, they may not have the ability to go back, rediscover, or re-express those thoughts, feelings, or memories. I know I was so overwhelmed that if someone interrupted me when I was expressing something, I may not be able to get back to it, and then it sits inside me. It’s important to be with someone and allow them to be themselves in those moments.

Not judge them. While you’re witnessing someone else’s pain and you’re working on not judging them, you talk about how this also helps us to get to know ourselves better.

That’s right.

In what way did you find that to be true?

I’m stressing myself after Marty passed, and someone would say, “I would be so lonely in that house of yours.” That might be telling that person that they need to probably start thinking about their own sense of loneliness. Someone would say, “I would feel so angry because she abandoned you,” or some silly thing like that. That person is expressing their own anxiety about being abandoned. Whatever thoughts come up in me when I’m being quiet, listening to another person, and being with them, those thoughts that come up are clues to me about something that maybe I need to deal with.

The Business Of Death And Respite Of Work

That is so wise. You also talk about the business of death, the respite of work, and why we shouldn’t wait to help our friends, relatives, and loved ones get the support they need when they need it, so they don’t weather a grief crisis alone. Talk to us about that, please.

The business of death is pretty intense. If your loved one was ill, like Marty was for many months, you’ve got medical bills and doctor bills. You still have to manage your own finances. You’ve got to talk to the undertaker about getting death certificates so that you can prove, “I need to take my wife’s or my husband’s name off the house.” All of these things are coming at you while you’re grieving.

Let go of the fear and regrets of the future and the guilt of the past. That is the recipe for freedom. Share on X

One of the things we can do to help someone is to help them with those kinds of things that are coming at them. It was a big deal. It was a lot of work, and I didn’t feel like I had the stamina to face those things. One of the things we can do for someone is to help them through all of that milieu of medical things, bills, insurance, documentation, and legal aspects of someone’s passing.

Marty and I were partners in everything. We were business partners. We were best friends. We were partners in life. We were the joint heads of a family. When she passed, every aspect of my life changed. The business changed. Our property changed. Our family changed. All of our relationships changed. Dealing with a lot of change is quite a challenge when you’re in grief. That business of death is very real.

I’m curious. When people came to you and you were in this grief crisis, were you the one who talked yourself into going for therapy, or did someone else guide you to that? That is another way you could help a person when they are in a crisis. It is to say, “I can recommend someone to you,” or, “I could help you find somebody.”

That happened very organically for me. Toward the very end of Marty’s life, we realized how profound our losses were. She was losing her life, and I was losing her. We reached out to hospice and asked them if they could recommend a grief counselor for us. Carol Davis showed up. She bounded up our stairs, turned the lights on in our lives, and helped us express some of the fear, desires, hopes, and sense of sadness.

It identifies for me why you have this abiding feeling for hospice and why you want to work with them. It sounds like they were very pivotal for you in your journey.

They were essential. They were there 24 hours a day, and they helped us through those last very challenging weeks of Marty’s life. She had stage four cancer and had whole brain radiation and chemotherapy. All those things had devastated her body and her mind. Having Carol come and help us express to each other when Marty could no longer talk because of the radiation was such a great gift to us. Carol was already in our lives. I invited her to come to the service that we had for Marty so that she could meet all the people that I was talking about, my children, our friends, relatives, etc. It was a very easy transition for me to move into grief counseling with Carol. We kept it up for two years.

When the Rocks Sing Book Promo

That is so admirable. Look at your life now. Look where you’re going. Before I ask you two more questions, I want to ask you. Do you have a special offer for our audience? I know you’ve got something with your book, right?

Yes, I do. The publisher Ballast Books and I have developed a 25% discount on my book. If you go to Ballast Books, look at the bookstore, and then type in When the Rocks Sing or my name, Marv Weidner, it will come up. When you go to check out, if you type in the word ‘Rebirth’, after your wonderful show, you’ll get a 25% discount on my book, When the Rocks Sing.

Opening To An Intimacy Coach

I also want to ask you, because this is a big one for people. Many people lose someone, and they think they’ll never love again. After dedicating two years to grief therapy, following the loss of your wife Marty, and spending an additional year and a half working with a spiritual and intimacy coach to open your heart to love again, could you give us your insights about each phase of your healing journey and what that was like to open to a spiritual and intimacy coach? That’s so smart. It led you to a new love in your life. Why do you think that healing is so essential for each of us?

Healing is so essential. It’s our very nature to heal. If our bodies are hurt, our bodies make every effort to heal. Why not do the same thing for our hearts? Why not do the same thing for our minds? What I found through the grief therapy and that whole intense process was that I had decided I wanted to fully engage in life. I wanted to reopen my heart. I wanted to live life as fully as I possibly could. I also realized that I wasn’t ready for a new relationship, and that I had old hurts as well as the grief that I was experiencing from Marty.

A friend of mine introduced me to Andrea Balboni, who was an intimacy and spiritual counselor or coach. We worked together for a year and a half on my past, my heart, how I thought about myself, and how I thought about life. I did some hard work. It was good work, but it was hard at times. I worked on myself to be ready to open my heart to a new person and a new relationship. I wasn’t ready to give up on life.

Marv’s One Tip In Finding Joy

That’s so wonderful. What is the Marv Weidner tip for finding joy in life? I’ll bet you have so many.

I would say three things. One is to make a decision to be happy. Number two, open your heart to what life might bring your way. Number three, which may be the most important to our conversation, is to find a way to let go of the things and the ways of thinking and feeling that hold you back. Let go of the fear of the future and of the regrets and the guilt of the past. For me, that’s the recipe for freedom.

As I would paraphrase it, love yourself enough to let go of all the things that are holding you back.

That’s beautiful.

Embrace yourself, too. It’s so important. I want to say how deeply I resonate with this very wise quote from When the Rocks Sing that has proven true in my life. The quote is, “Resulting from the loss of a loved one can overwhelm us for a time. It will become part of us always, but it does not determine our future. We can choose to be happy, choose our purpose, and how we will live each day.”

I know that you are a remarkable role model for overcoming grief and loss, and finding ways to move forward to find new joy and purpose while bettering your own life and that of others. Thank you from my heart for another inspiring, touching, and wisdom-filled interview on the show. Thank you again, and many blessings.

Thank you.

This has been such a pleasure. To be continued.

Thank you. This has been wonderful. I’m so grateful to you.

Thank you so much, and vice versa. It’s a pleasure. One of the wonderful parts, honestly, of doing this show is meeting wonderful people like Marv Weidner, whom I get to enjoy and learn from, also.

Being filled with love and joy is probably a way of describing what you’ve given yourself through this show. It shows in your face, your voice, and your work. I am truly grateful to you for what you’re doing and for giving me the opportunity to be with you.

Guest Links:

• Managing Results
• Marv Weidner’s Website
• Connect with Marv Weidner on LinkedIn
• Connect with Marv Weidner on Facebook
• Connect with Carol Davis on LinkedIn
• Andrea Balboni’s Website
• When the Rocks Sing: A Story of Love, Loss, and Learning to Live Again
• Get Your Copy of When the Rocks Sing and Enter the Code “Rebirth” at the Checkout to Get a 25% Discount

About Marv Weidner

Marv Weidner is the CEO and Chairman of Managing Results, LLC (formerly Weidner, Inc.). Marv has 15 years of experience in over 70 government jurisdictions coaching senior government leaders on how to lead and manage change. Marv has been directly involved with all levels of government – city, county, state and federal levels. He frequently speaks to government leaders on a variety of topics. Find Managing Results (MR) at http://www.managing-results.com.

Marv’s career in consulting, coaching and speaking builds on 20 years of senior government experience with the State of Iowa. His experience in Iowa provides tremendous context and understanding of the challenges and opportunities faced by government leaders.

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