Andrew Hahn is a holistic psychotherapist who has specialized in healing trauma for the past 27 years. His doctoral training as a Doctor of Psychology was very extensive and diverse, but a few years after he graduated, Andy became the director of training at a local clinic when he began to have some psychic experiences that were outside the realm of typical Western reality. Following the lead of his intuition, Andy completed two years of intensive holistic study, and this led him to conclude that he could get better results by combining what he had learned during those past two years with his traditional training. Andy founded the Life Centered Therapy Training Institute, through which he has trained people throughout the United States and Internationally. His life’s work and personal commitment is to help end a person’s suffering and indeed, to end all suffering.
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Andrew Hahn: Are You Ready To Change Your Story And Change Your Life?
I’m excited to have this opportunity to interview Andrew Hahn, a Holistic Psychotherapist who has specialized in healing trauma for many years. Andrew will be speaking to us from Walton, Massachusetts. Andy’s Doctoral training as a Doctor of Psychology was very extensive and diverse. A few years after he graduated, Andy became the Director of Training at a local clinic when he began having some psychic experiences outside the realm of typical Western reality. Following the lead of his intuition, Andy completed two years of intensive holistic study. This led him to conclude that he could get better results by combining what he had learned during those past two years with his traditional trainings.
Andy Founded the Life Centered Therapy Training Institute, through which he has trained people throughout the United States and internationally. His life’s work and personal commitment are to help end a person suffering and indeed to end all suffering. Andy’s mission aligns with this show’s mission, which is to encourage people to heal and end their suffering. I’m very much looking forward to a dynamic, impactful conversation with Andy about healing trauma, what people can do to be free of suffering and so much more. Andy, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for inviting me. I can’t wait for us to have a conversation together. It’s exciting.
We’re going to help so many people. This is so wonderful. Let’s introduce people to you by having you explain to them what originally inspired you to become a therapist specializing in healing trauma.
What inspired me was a moment. This ultimately did it. This is what set me on this path. It was one of the most pivotal moments in my life. I had gone out to visit a friend who had become a devotee of Yogananda at the Self-Realization Fellowship. She had left everything behind to do this. She was the head of all NGOs at the UN and left it.
Would you explain to everyone what Yogananda is, for those who don’t know?
Yogananda is a guru. His name is Paramahansa Yogananda. He came to the United States and started a group called The Self-Realization Fellowship. The way most of us know about him is a book called the Autobiography of a Yogi, which for many of us, it’s one of the first books we read when we start entering these worlds. I had already read it, but I didn’t know it from the inside out. That’s who he is.
She became a devotee for a while and then went on with her life. This is when she had gone out to do that. I knew I had to see her for some reason, so she invited me to come out and stay with her for a week. The day before I went out there, she fell down and fell badly. She had done something awful to her ankle because when I got there, she was in excruciating pain and her ankle had turned blue. It was double the size of an ankle, but she hadn’t gone to the doctor and she wanted me to go with her to the fellowship. She said, “I want to take you there anyway.” The next day, we go there and she’s like, leaning against me.
She’s in terrible pain the whole time.
I said, “Okay.” She knows how to take care of herself. I said, “She knows what she’s doing.” I already knew she was an Indian mystic. I didn’t know what all that meant yet. I had an idea. We go to this heart chanting service for an hour and all we’re doing is most beautiful chanting together. It was enchanting. She wants to walk me around the fellowship, the holy grounds of the fellowship, which I would say is as close to heaven on Earth as I found in this country. I highly recommend everyone goes to it. It’s in Encinitas, California. It’s breathtaking, so highly vibrational and spiritual. I can cry about it now and I haven’t been there for quite a while.
We’re walking around and we get to these two benches and she says, “Even with leaning on you, I can’t walk another step. I can’t do it at all, even with what little I’m putting pressure on my ankle. You’re going to have to carry me out of here.” She sits down on one of these benches. They’re parallel with each other and I wanted her to be able to put her leg on my leg so she could have it raised. I saw where I wanted to sit and I had to go around a whole lot of bushes to get to a little opening to get to where this was. The second I sit down in this seat, on this bench, I am flooded with 100 suns. That’s the best way I can describe it.
I knew it wasn’t the sun because I knew where the sun was and I knew where this energy was in the universe and they weren’t the same. I knew it wasn’t the sun. I knew it was strange and I could feel it entering me and coming into him of the center of my chest and out my hands to her ankle. Except it felt more like I was immersed in it. I told my friend to give me her ankle and she put it on my leg.
I didn’t touch her. I experienced this energy flowing through my hands to her ankle. I did that for about 5 or 10 seconds and I had a sense we were done. She says to me, “You know I can read auras, don’t you?” This is 1991 and you and I are both Jewish. I said, “I’m a nice Jewish boy from Boston. What do I know from auras?”
She says, “Are you aware that there’s light coming through the crown of your head and into the center of your chest and out through your hands to my ankle?” I said, “I can’t see it the way you’re talking about, but I know what you’re saying is true.” She said, “Do you notice where you sat? It was a very strange place.” I said, “Yeah because I had my reason.” She said, “That’s not why you sat there. It’s called the Seat of the Healer. Virtually no one sits in that seat, which says something about who you are if you end up sitting there.”
We look down and there’s no swelling and no discoloration. She gets up and she walks out with no pain, at which point, to coin a phrase, I said, “We’re not in Kansas anymore. We’re someplace else.” That was the end of six months of quite remarkable experiences. After that experience, I did not know it, but I wanted to understand what had happened there and deepen it.
That led me onto this two-year journey that I didn’t know was a two-year journey. I kept going wherever I was led for two years and studied about everything you could imagine that was non-traditional. I did mystery trainings, healing through touch trainings, dark shadow trainings, psychic trainings, and psychosynthesis. I studied the Enneagram very deeply and I did regression trainings. I did all kinds of things. I was still a fairly mainstream psychologist while that was going on, so I had these two worlds.
At the end of that, I had an acquaintance. She said, “You got to go see this woman. She’s doing miracles in New Jersey.” Not even West Orange. I don’t know where this thing took place in New Jersey. She had been at a workshop in New Jersey and she said, “I don’t understand what this woman did, but she told me the story of what happened.” The story of what happened is the woman who was running the workshop was named Judith. One of the participants had a bad case of asthma. She could barely walk up the stairs. This is what my acquaintance told me. It was so hard for her to breathe.
Judith does a session with her. During the session, she used something called muscle testing or kinesiology, which I had not heard of in 1991. She has this woman tap all over her body, which my acquaintance didn’t understand. At the end of all that tapping and telling a story, Judith muscle-tested and said that her asthma was cleared. She told the woman, because Judith has a strong personality, to go outside, walk, and see if she feels different.
The woman starts walking up the street and then she starts to run. She runs up the street and runs back. She’s exhilarated and exhausted, is what I’m told. The woman says it’s not a surprise because she said, “I’ve not been able to run a step in seven years.” That’s interesting. It turned out Judith lived 10 miles away from me. Judith had started training people and I found out what she was doing and I was doing things that she had no idea about because Judith had no background in psychology at all and no background, particularly in energy.
She was a neurobiologist. She got interested in brain function. She learned Neuro-Linguistic Programming. She found this quite remarkable woman who was a craniosacral therapist. She learned that person’s protocol, a woman named Mary Louise Mueller, who was a little angel in the world. I met Mary Lou once and she was something. I remember the evening still. She became one of Roger Callahan’s first students. Roger Callahan was the original person who did tapping.
Judith did her own original research on loss and violence traumas. She wrote this paper with no background in psychology whatsoever, saying that there is the same structure every time there’s violence and every time there’s loss. Even though the surface is different, what goes on underneath is the same. It doesn’t matter. If you know all of what goes on, you can transform any loss, violence, or trauma. That’s what Judith knew.
What I knew was I had studied about everything you can imagine in psychology. I studied traditional psychology and what’s called post-narrative systems. My training was unbelievably diverse when I was a psychologist. I had gone off and I’d done all of these mystery trainings, healing through touch and depth psychology. I studied Jung deeply. I studied the Enneagram and all of this stuff. I was trained and I was already a psychologist and a professor. I was the first person who ever did her training, who had a Doctorate in Clinical Psych. She and I became partners for a while and worked at white heat.
What does white heat mean?
It means that within about a year and a half, we created a system that is the foundation for both of our work. We discovered these universal patterns that when people know about them, they can make healing go dramatically faster. I can tell you all about that, but we did that together. We were a very good team because I’m very big picture. If you tell me things, I can see a pattern.
Judith is a remarkable small-picture person. You give her any details and she’ll find detail and build up from the bottom up and I’m from the top down in terms of this, although all my work is from the bottom up. We created this system and we were very different. Judith is medical modeling and is very interested in cures and fixing. I’m very non-medical modeling and very interested in healing and soul. Our worldviews were quite different.
Together, you had almost all covered.
That was from 1993 to 1996. We went each in our own ways. I’ve been training people in what was called Guided Self-Healing until we changed the overall name to Life Centered Therapy. Any training we do for the public is still called Guided Self-Healing because we teach you to how you can self-heal. What we’re talking about, it’s guided by the larger self, which is guided by life. That’s what we call it Life Centered Therapy because we think life has its own consciousness, its own beingness. Our role is to be in alignment with life. When we are truly free, we can play our roles and nothing will stop us.
I love your story and how you also guide people to help themselves to heal. You don’t have them dependent on you like that. You teach them.
You can teach anybody to do the healing work. The beauty of this healing work is that I can explain it to a smart ten-year-old in two minutes and they’ll get it and start doing it for themselves. I’ve been doing it for many years and I still am learning stuff. I had a session where something happened that had never happened before. I do this for 30 hours a week. I’m still learning.
You’re still having new things come to you. You have an amazing story about a special past life story you discovered in Machu Picchu. Can you share that with us?
I was with Roshan again. We had asked Roshan to lead a trip for us. Roshan knew Machu Picchu like no one in the world because the first time she went to Machu Picchu, she is not into hyperboles. She found all of the senior guides and started telling them what happened there and things they never knew. She led us there. When this experience started, we were in Machu Picchu. Machu Picchu has a cave that looks like a heart and is literally the heart of an animal. We’re in there. She knows all of the shamans and guides around there. She had this very special shaman who was doing this ritual.
He had us close our eyes. The second I close my eyes, I feel a hand on my shoulder. I know the person who was next to me, who I love, but was a prankster. I thought, “Really?” I looked over, but he was clearly not pranking. I suddenly realized there was a hand on my shoulder, but it wasn’t anyone’s material form. I closed my eyes and I saw who this person was.
The best way to describe her would be if you put together a priestess and a goddess. I could tell what she was and I could see her very vividly. I did a motion. I could show you the motion, but it was like I was riding. I started going like I was riding very fast on a horse, which if you knew me, was a funny idea. I see some things. The thing that I realize is that I’m in front of a whole failing lengths of hundreds of people.
It was physical. In my mind’s eye, I’m riding this horse and then I realize I’m reliving it. There are all these people around me, but I’m leading all of them. We get to a place and I can tell we’re barricading like an installation. We’ve surrounded it and we’re going to let nothing in and let nothing out. I’m thinking, “What am I doing on a horse? This is Machu Picchu. I shouldn’t be having a horse.” The word came to me Spanish and I realized that we had taken some of the horses from the Spanish and that’s how I had a horse because I didn’t think they had horses.
Anyway, we’re at this place and then I get this vision in my head of all these men coming up. I see all these men coming up to Machu Picchu in Kachina outfits and meeting me up there. There were scores of men. We go down and then we start doing this and I realize, we’re barricading this installation. They start telling me they have to go home because they can’t stay there. They have to go and feed their wives and children and they can’t stay there forever.
It starts thinning and then I know what happens. There were Spanish and they come out, capture me, and bring me into where they are. They torture me and they murder me in a very awful way. That’s what I knew at the time. That’s what came to me while I was riding that horse in that vision. The next day, Roshan and I were going into Machu Picchu together because she said, “We should do this. You’ll lead the way.”
We walk into Machu Picchu and if you’ve been there, you know that there’s a crossroads where you can go down into where people lived. I thought we were going to go there because I thought by then, something was beginning to torque and they were doing what I understood to be virgin sacrifices. I thought a lot of people had died there, but not in ways that were in alignment. There was a time that that was done because of a ritual, an initiation to be able to stay alive while you were dead and come back immediately. It was done in a very spiritual way. That had started to change. I thought we were going to be doing trauma work down there.
We get to this crossroads and I can’t go to the right. She said, “We have to go up to the left. I didn’t want to make Roshan do that because Roshan is not very well. She walks in front of me and we go up to where there are three altars. She’s in front of me and she turns around. I start to see her shapeshift into the goddess priestess I had seen the day before. She said, “I’ve never talked to you about our past lives. Do you know about our past life here?” I said, “I have some idea of it. I don’t know all of it, but I’m beginning to get a better sense even now. I know what I know, but I don’t know all of it.”
She said, “I’m going to tell you our story,” which makes a lot of sense in my life. It was very healing. She said, “There were three groups here. There were a group of women from another dimension who came down to this dimension for healing a whole culture and being able to be with them when they were going through something horrific. There were the leaders, warriors, and people who were in service. There were three groups.”
Her whole group of women had taken a vow of celibacy. It’s a fascinating story. We were not supposed to have sex because of a whole variety, which she told me. She fell in love because she was human for not very long. She didn’t know what it was like being human. She and the head of the men fell in love and consummated their love.
She not only had sex, but she got pregnant, which of course, was going to be a nightmare because her whole agreement was that she would remain celibate so that she would remain pure and non-attached. She had to say, “What am I going to do now?” She had the power to mask her pregnancy, but she couldn’t end her pregnancy. A child was born and she said, “You were that child and I was your mother.”
That was a wow. She said, “I couldn’t own my maternity so I had to watch you.” I then started to tell her I know what the story is. I was told stories about my mother not being there, like going off someplace and leaving me. No one would ever tell me the real story of it. My father raised me and I got to be a young man and it was time to have a change of power. I was livid about the fact that I had been abandoned and no one was going to tell me. I didn’t know my story.
When that power change started to happen, I got into cahoots with the Spanish and I started to do sacred mystical Christian rituals up on one of the altars in Machu Picchu, which of course, is sacrilege to say because the Christians doing rituals and Machu Picchu is an anathema. I said I was starting to do that because I had agreed with the Spanish and I became Christian and tried to convert people.
She watched me going down this path and said she couldn’t do anything about it because she couldn’t own her maternity. She watched me going off the path and going down this other path, not because it was true for me, but because I was grudged. It’s not that they weren’t wonderful things that could happen with those rituals, but they weren’t done from a pure place.
I came to realize that the Spanish were using me, at which point I went back to the other path and said, “We have to protect ourselves from the Spanish and the only way we can do that is to make sure that they can’t get here by blocking them.” At that point, I was the leader of this group, and we blocked them and then we picked up the rest of the story. That’s the story. That’s what I learned and it had a lot of meaning in my life, which I could tell you except we don’t have enough time.
When you come back for next time, you will revisit that.
I’ll tell you what’s amazing.
We’ll give everybody upcoming attractions.
Let me tell you what’s amazing, though. I go and tell our guide, who is probably the most renowned guide in Machu Picchu. I tell him the whole story and he says, “Do you know what story you’re telling?” I said, “I have no idea of the history of this place.” She said, “You’re telling the story of Tupac Amaru, who’s called the Last Incan and you’re telling everything historically that’s known about him exactly the way it was known about him.”
I told him about the rituals that I was doing that were Christian rituals. He turned white and said, “I’m going to tell you something that no one else knows because I’m going to write it in a book, but I’m very scared to write it. About four years ago, I brought a group of Christian mystics who are bishops and cardinals to Machu Picchu. I was describing to them how there were 3 altars, 1 for the women, 1 for the men, and 1 for the people who were supporting them.”
“One of the cardinals said, ‘You’re wrong.’ he pointed to one of them and he said, ‘That wasn’t for the people. That was a lie that was told. Christian rituals were being done on that altar.’” That was the altar I pointed at where I said I was doing Christian rituals. He turned white as a sheet. He said, “I’m going to write this in a book, but I’m worried that when I do because it will be such a sacrilege to say this when we want to honor the Incan people to say that there were Christian rituals going on at the top on the biggest altar in Machu Picchu.
That’s your story, though. You’ve brought us a first on the show because I’ve talked to people about past lives and we’ve talked about the concept of it. We’ve mentioned a few, but we’ve never had one in such detail. This is wonderful. I’m so glad for people to read this.
We teach people how to find their own “past lives,” if they believe in past lives. If they don’t, we’ll say it’s a dream, your personal mythology, or your imagination. If you have had many symptoms that you’ve been working on forever and you haven’t found the root in the other lifetime, you can get results that you would call miraculous if you find the other lifetime and transform it. I could tell you story after story. I could tell you one for sure.
I want to hear some of your stories. When people go to the Life Centered Therapy Institute if they want to, they can also learn about their past lives, I think.
They almost always learn about their past lives karmically or genealogically because we find out where the root is. We find out what your real intention is, which sometimes is what you think it is. Sometimes the things you come in with are symptoms of something deeper. If there are symptoms of something deeper like betrayal or you can’t let go or neglect, I can find the theme and I can find out where it originates.
If it says it originates in your lifetime, we’ll go to someplace in your lifetime. If it says it originates in another lifetime, I say to people, “What’s your belief about other lifetimes?” If they say, “I’m open to it,” I say, “Great.” If they say never mention it, I don’t because I don’t care what they believe about it. People who’ve worked in this lifetime forever and not gotten the results they want. They will often get results that look biblical within a half hour in one session because they never heard of them. Everything in this lifetime was an echo of something that was bleed-through from another lifetime that their soul was helping this person try to remember. We don’t know that. We just think it stinks.
That’s fabulous for our audience to know about. That’s wonderful. Tell us some of your amazing stories. Give us 1, 2, or 3 about people who have healed through your Life Centered Therapy Institute. Turn us on, Andy.
I was at a conference and I was doing a breakout session in front of about 100 people in an amphitheater. I asked for volunteers to do a session. This woman gets picked in a way. It doesn’t matter, but she gets picked and she comes up and says, “I have tried everything. I have this major depression and nothing is touching it. I’ve tried medication, cognitive behavioral therapy, and energy psychology. I’ve tried everything. I feel weighed down, helpless, and hopeless. I can’t move. I’m totally stuck and I’m scared.” I muscle test and I say, “Are we to work on that depression? Is that the most important thing to work on?” It says, “No. That’s not the most important thing.”
She starts to hyperventilate in front of all these people and starts having a panic attack. She says, “I know this is crazy and I’ve tried cognitive behavioral therapy for this too and many other things. I take meds for it.” She spoke in front of people. She had to take major meds for it. “I know these people are going to kill me and people have told me it’s a crazy thought, but I know they’re going to and it makes me crazy.” I muscle test. I say, “Is that it?” It says no. She says, “I don’t know what it is.” I say, “Is that true that you don’t know what your highest intention is?” It says, “Yes.” I find it in our framework, a pattern we call a death wish.
A death wish means that there’s a part of you that wants to die. I found out where it originated and it originated in a karmic past life which she was open to. Apart from wanting to die can be two things. It can mean something so bad happened that you wished you were dead or it can mean you had such a traumatic death that you dissociated before you died.
At this point, you get stuck outside your body because if you don’t want to experience that physical or emotional spiritual pain of dying, you’ll leave like anybody will under those circumstances. You leave the body before you’re dead and if they kill the body, you’re stuck. I had her say out loud, “A part of me wants to die.” When I did the muscle testing, if people know muscle testing, I press on an arm.
If it stays strong, it means yes. It stayed like steel. She couldn’t keep her arm up when I said, “No part of me wants to die.” I asked, “Does that resonate with you? No part wants to die.” She said, “It makes no rational sense, but it does resonate with me even though it doesn’t make sense.” I said, “When you allow, whoever’s here who’s saying, ‘I want to die,’ I want you to scan your body and see what you notice.” She starts scanning her body and she says, “I’m having extreme pain in my neck.”
I said, “It’s not you that doesn’t want to die. It’s a person whose name is Extreme Pain In Neck.” It’s not your Extreme Pain In Neck. Its name is Extreme Pain in Neck, just like her name is Sylvia. “You’re going to bring all your attention to Extreme Pain In Neck to such a degree that you’re going to become it from the inside out. It’s like an actor who’s choosing to become a role and fully enrolls themselves. One of three things will happen.”
I didn’t explain all this. “Either you’ll start living it out like you are an actor in a play or you’ll see images like you’re watching a movie or you’ll know what’s happening like you’re reading a novel. I’m going to talk directly to Pain In Neck.” I say, “Pain In Neck, where are you beginning? What’s happening? What have you come to share about this wanting to die?” She starts violently wrenching her neck over and over again and she says, “There’s a guillotine coming down on me. They put me face up.” She tells us this later. She’s screaming. She says, “There’s a guillotine coming.” She starts screaming, “I can’t move. I’m weighed down. I’m helpless. I’m hopeless. I can’t move.”
People are always telling the story. It’s not a metaphor. She says, “I’m in front of this whole crowd of people.” It’s clearly the French Revolution. “They’re throwing things at me and they’re cursing me and I’m vowing I will never be in front of a group of people again.” She’s screaming all of this. She says, “God, I was a good Christian woman. Why did You forsake me?” She’s gone to all of these spiritual conferences.
She says, “I can never feel the presence of God. I will never believe in You again.” She’s screaming all this stuff. She didn’t tell us that she had awful chronic neck pain. The accident was trying to get away from something. She was trying to get away from something and she terribly hurt her neck. That was her story about the accident. There are no accidents. Our soul is creating things for us that look like accidents but they’re an invitation to remember. She’s screaming all this stuff and then she says, “I must have died.” I said, “Now we know what your problem is. You didn’t know you had died and there’s only one reason that could be, which is part of you left.”
The part that left said, “I must have died because you would’ve known you would die, but you never would’ve experienced dying because you weren’t in the body.” I said, “You are living out the end of that woman’s story. All we’re going to do is we’re going to take care of her. Now that we know what happened and she knows what’s happened, we’re going to invite her to come back into the body fully right before she dies. As her, you’re going to fully die this time with awareness. When you’re dying, you’re going to go out the crown of your head. This time by choice, not by fear.”
She says something funny. Do you know what she says? She says, “The one that’s rolling down the hill or the energetic one that’s still on the top of my head?” She said, “I know which one. It’s the one on the top of my head.” She goes out of the crown of her head and she looks up. She says, “I see this light. I’m going to the light.” She did this on her own. She says, “I’m being taken into the light.” She has this beatific smile on her face and she says, “I’m done.” That took about 30 minutes.
Now I’m going to tell you what happened. She’s in front of this whole crowd of people in an amphitheater and they start asking her questions. She starts turning her neck from side to side. “This is impossible because I can’t turn my neck like that. If I did, I would be screaming in pain, but I don’t have any pain.” A little bit later, she says, “I should be thinking you guys are going to kill me and that you hate me, but I don’t believe it anymore. I’m having the best time with you and I have no medication. I have no nothing and I’m having the best time with you. I don’t feel weighed down, helpless, hopeless, and scared. I feel a sense of lightness and I can even feel divine presence.”
I’ll tell you what’s even more fabulous about it. I saw her at the same conference next year. She searched me out and she said almost all of it held. It didn’t all hold. I said to her, “Probably because there are other layers because there are other things that can go into your depression, your fear of crowds, or whatever because it’s like an archeological dig.” She said basically, it’s all held and that was 30 minutes. I have a lot of stories like that. I have stories that are even more wild than that.
Chronicle them because the next time you come back, we’ll have you tell a few more. That’s amazing. Andy, what is the difference between healing and cure?
Healing is about freedom. A cure is about symptoms not being there anymore. Sometimes when you do healing, you get cured, but it’s not the point. The point is to be free. Let’s look at it this way. Let’s say you’re dying. You have no anxiety anymore and you’re not saying, “Why hast Thou forsaken me?” you can give yourself over with courage and grace. You’re not judgmental and comparative. “Why is this happening to me and nobody else?” but you say, “I’m sad about it but I’m dying.” You don’t have a problem even if you die.
What we’re looking for is freedom. Freedom says that you can take whatever comes and say yes to it and that you know that on some level, whatever’s happening if you can be non-reactive and say, “I can be with whatever’s here,” you are free. If life wants you to “be cured,” you’ll be cured. If it’s not in life’s interest for you to be cured, you may not be cured, but you won’t care because you’ll know you’re in alignment and you’re doing your part of life. You’ll be able to have a much grander perspective.
It’s like who we are as cells. It’s a mystical concept. We’re like cells in the body of life. Each of us has our own role to play. As you say, I had my mission, but each of us knows everything, just like cells. You can take one cell and has the whole template of everything that has ever happened is happening. It potentially can happen. That’s how we can clone Dolly the sheep. One cell, all the information.
When you touch the template, you don’t worry about anything anymore. There’s no anxiety because you touch into a bigger picture. If you can do that all the time, they call you Christ, Buddha, or Guanyin and then you can touch the template and there’s no more anything. That’s healing. Cure is symptoms go away.
Let me ask you a question. When you were talking about healing, so are you talking mostly about acceptance and letting go?
Yes. That’s entirely it. Even you can know how to do it, which is that whenever there’s something that can’t be handled, what is acceptance and letting go? People’s problem is because they can’t handle something, they identify with the one who is traumatized. You have a panic attack when a car backfires. Years ago, you were in Afghanistan. A bomb goes off. You can’t handle it. You’re no longer the one who’s having an experience. You are identified with the experience.
If I can say to you, when the motorcycle backfires and you’re having a panic attack and jumping on my fore, what are you feeling in the body? You say, “My heart’s pounding.” I’d say, “It’s not you. Nothing’s happening to you right now, but something’s happening to Heart Pounding.” We can find out where that began.
If you choose to become Heart Pounding, then you have accepted. You’ve been able to face and master what you couldn’t face and master before and then you’re free because then you’ve chosen to be it while you identify with the one who’s doing the choosing and identifying with the witness who’s holding and hosting the person who’s there having bombs go off. You’re no longer identified with it. The next time that a motorcycle backfires, you’ll say, “This reminds me of a terrible thing. It’s not who I am. It’s an experience I had.”
You’re neutralizing the triggers.
I’m neutralizing the triggers by having the person re-experience it but by choice. There’s no regression so there can be no re-traumatization. I can bring people into the worst horrendous trauma in the first minute of therapy because we’re not regressing them to age two, where there’s ritual abuse. We’re saying that the two-year-old is here right now because she couldn’t handle the fact that she was watching murders and make being forced to do things.
She’s here. All you have to do is find her and the way you’ll find her is a sensation because when she was doing stuff that she couldn’t handle, a sensation was born in that moment. That sensation is like you. Just like Irene was born in a moment, it was born in a moment. It has its own life and all we have to do is say, “I’m going to choose to become you as opposed to identify with you.”
It’s that simple. If all you did was that, every time you had a discomfort before you did anything else, you say, “What did you come to share with me, Headache?” Every time there’s something that you have any reaction to before you do anything else, you find the sensation in the body and you find it and say, “What have you come to share about whatever it is you’re anxious about? Where is it beginning? What’s happening?” Watch what happens. You’ll have better therapy than you will virtually any therapist because therapists will have you talk about it, which is called Trickle-Down Economics. Why not start with the person who has the problem, whose name is Sick To Stomach, Headache, or whatever its name is?
That’s why you believe that true healing requires a holistic approach, a mind, body, and spirit approach, as opposed to traditional healing.
Mind, body, and spirit are all one. It’s much more powerful to do it through the body because the body holds everything. The body has a record of everything. You get visual, auditory, and kinesthetic when you come to the sensation because you become the other being. Whichever way is right, you might see it and you might relive it. Some people say, “I want pictures.” I say, “I want pictures too, but I’m visual third.” I know what happens because I’m auditory and kinesthetic, so I know what happens and I live it, but I don’t see pictures.
It’s all holistic. What it is holistically is to say it’s not even about me. It’s about life revealing itself to me through me, but it’s about something much bigger than me because why are we doing it? It’s to be free to be who we are. In order to be free to be who we are, if I was going to put it simply, “How do I heal all the karma?” Karma simply is something that couldn’t be handled.
As you’re healing all that karma and you’re becoming free to be who you are, you’re evolving.
It’s all about evolving. You get to evolve because you don’t get in the way. You can say yes to whatever is there, including the changes that will naturally happen. If you don’t try to force anything to happen, it will happen. All you have to do is pay attention. Your work is to pay attention, not to do anything else. That’s called free will. Do you pay attention or don’t you? That’s it.
You say that struggles come in many flavors and some are harder to overcome. Tell us a little bit about that and how you help a person. You call it mapping out the quiz of his or her traumas.
I’ll tell you what’s harder and what’s easier. What’s easier is things like what I described to you. If people have symptoms like chronic pain that no one can touch, that’s going to be about life experience almost invariably. All you have to do is find the thing that they were remembering and have them remember it.
If somebody is walking around saying, “I’ve got spinal stenosis,” are you saying that that’s from an experience, not an actual physical symptom? How would you explain that?
Everything is energetic and narrative. The energy then plays out in DNA, which then plays out in what we call genetic problems or whatever else it is. Do I think all of them ultimately are narrative? I do. Everything that is in the body is a reflection of an energy field that’s been through things and has its own dense energy that plays out in a way that will be the most useful way for you to remember what it is you’re trying to remember in order to heal and evolve.
You have to realize what that means. I don’t know if you can then heal it because some energy is very in the material world. To change it, you might need someone like a Christ around who can say, “I can open to such a vibration that I can bring the densest energy to that vibration.” Of course, people who are dead come alive again, which is harder to do than spinal stenosis. If you’re saying, “Can I cure spinal stenosis?” Absolutely not. I make nobody guarantees.
Even if theoretically, we could, all I say is, “I guarantee you 1 of 2 things. If you stick around long enough, either the symptom will go away, whatever it is, or your relationship to it will change to such a degree that you will have no reactivity anymore. At this point, all you have is pain, but you don’t have pain about the pain and then you’ll live your life.
How do you help a person map out the cause of his or her trauma?
I use muscle testing. You’ll come in with something like that woman did. Let’s suppose you come in with something else like I’m a nobody and I’ve always felt like I was a nobody. I would say that a different possibility about that is that it’s not a trauma that’s in life. It’s a trauma that’s in the soul. By which I mean as soon as we become separate, in the beginning, you could say who we are is everything. That’s who we are. We’re boundless, dimensionless, intimately expanding everything. We’re all-powerful. We’re all-knowing, but we can’t exactly be all-loving.
In the same way that if you are you and you haven’t had children, you can know love, but you can’t know what it’s like to love a child because you’ve never had the experience because you haven’t had the relationship. If you want to have a relationship, you have to create something and then have them forget what they are. That’s what our story is in a nutshell. We’re made in God’s image, you could say. God creates us, sustains us, destroys us, but also mystifies us. The mystery says we forget who we truly are.
Meaning we truly are as souls.
No. Who we truly are is everything. The soul is an aspect of everything. The soul is like a raindrop in an ocean.
Are you talking about universal consciousness?
Yes. What I’d say is from the point of view of us as limited beings, universal consciousness means we will cease to exist. It’s a trauma. It’s called the Existential Anxiety of Non-Existence. We spend an awful lot of time trying not to be who we are, which is life because we’re afraid that we will cease to exist. If what happens, the way we protect ourselves is we identify with an I. If I’m an I, then I don’t have to worry about non-existence, except there’s one problem, which is I am this I in the context of trauma. I’m going to experience myself as being something that I would call negative. That protects me from non-existence, but it creates its own problem.
Let’s say I’m ordinary and defective. That’s protected me from non-existence, but it’s like going out of the frying pan into the fire because even though it’s protected me from something, so it’s serving me, it becomes its own problem. I have to create a personality. The way not to experience this thing I’m most afraid to experience about myself. I’m ordinary and therefore defective. If you knew me, you’d say I’d rather be dead than being ordinary and defective. What happens?
I then have to compulsively be special. I compulsively get approval and compulsively connect, but I never get to be special. I never get to connect. I never get to be who I am because I’m being these things in order not to experience fear. Let’s suppose I could experience that fear for one second and I could say, “I’m ordinary and defective,” then I’d be free.
I’d find out that the thing that was my worst nightmare, which was a black hole that was going to suck me into it, was love because what’s gravitational pull? It’s like love and it’s inviting us to be who we truly are, which is everything, which is to enter the black hole, but we’ve called it by the wrong name. We spend all our lives trying to get away from it.
That trauma is harder to resolve than one where you’ve had a trauma and life experience because it’s like climbing a mountain. You keep going and going and it gets harder and harder because life will give you more and more challenges about the things that are your deepest fears about yourself that have nothing to do with life experience. They are the lens through which you experience life.
If you know the Enneagram, if I’m someone who’s a self-forgetter and I say, “I respond, therefore I am.” For me to say I’m going to stop being responsible and do what I want is like pulling out fingernails. That’s not true for me because I’m a heart point. I’m not a belly point. For me, it’s about craving. For me, the problem is discernment because I have no head. I tell myself a story I feel, therefore, I am because I’m a heart point. Why do I have to elevate feeling over being?
It’s because I don’t want to have to deal with my fear that there’s no head there. There’s just a black hole. That’s like climbing a mountain. My partner in this says, “It’s like climbing a mountain and you keep going because you have to go to deeper and deeper layers of those fears until you finally touch this fear called non-existence.” Can you sit with that fear? If you can, going up that mountain is hard because you get less oxygen, are more tired, have fewer supplies, get steeper, and can’t see the summit, but you know it’s there. You only know when you take a break and say, “How far have I come?” Those are different kinds of problems. They’re existential as opposed to material.
Andy, tell me why it’s so difficult for people to give up their painful stories. They’re suffering and they don’t want to give them up. They don’t want to do what they need to do to heal.
I don’t believe that. I believe they don’t know how to do it because, “I don’t want to give it up,” could be a story. Let’s suppose I have you in there and you say, “I don’t want to give it up. I have to hold onto it.”
Isn’t that often a person’s identity when they hold on to their trauma and suffering?
It’s their pseudo-identity. It’s not their identity. It’s not who they really are. It’s a story. Let’s suppose five lifetimes ago you had a baby and someone was taking your baby and you say, “I don’t want to give it up. I can’t give it up,” and they take it away from you. You come and say, “I have to hold on to everything I can hold onto.” It’s not you saying it. It’s somebody five lifetimes ago who was having their baby taken away.
I don’t think there’s any such thing as resistance. There’s only remembering. Therapists think that people don’t want to give up their suffering, so they say they’re resisting. They don’t want to give it up, but in my experience, it’s wrong because they don’t have the technology to know what to do with someone who comes in and seems to be resisting.
There is no such thing as resisting. There’s only remembering. You can’t step outside the process. If you come into my room and say, “I don’t want to do this,” you think you’re Irene in 2021, but you’re not. You’re somebody in a story that’s being forced to kill someone and they don’t want to do it and then you are playing it out and you think it’s who you are but it isn’t who you are. It’s an experience you’re having.
I would treat every experience the same way. That’s why I say there is no such thing as resistance. There is no such thing as pathology. There are only stories we don’t know yet because we haven’t found them and don’t know what to do with them. There is no such thing as regression because it’s all happening right now. All you have to do is be willing to go on that journey. Everyone I know who I’ve ever found is because they have tried so hard but no one knows how to help them do it. That’s why I’m here because it makes me crazy that they go to therapists and therapists say, “You’re unworkable.” I would say, “No, therapist. You just don’t know how to do the work.”
Maybe someone’s had a hard time finding people to help them, whatever their problem is. They read this and they go, “Maybe this guy could help me,” and they live far away. Tell us about your online healing services, the benefits of healing, and how all that works through life-centered healing therapy. If someone is reading and thinking, “Maybe I can try this, but how do I do this online or whatever?”
It’s simple because I use muscle testing. You don’t have to be sitting in the room with me. I ask you one question. If you could have anything you desire, even if you didn’t think it was possible, what would you intend to get from the time so you’re not settling, you get exactly what you want?” That’s all I ask you. You’re going to tell me and I’m going to write down everything you say, then I’m going to start muscle testing.
From a distance? You can do this while they’re in their home on Zoom with you?
I’m going to tell you how. If your audience doesn’t know muscle testing, I have to explain that. It’s simply a way that you can find your deepest intuitive knowing. Irene, you had a child. You had a car accident. Let’s pose a car rolled over your child. It was a 2,000-pound car and you go and pick up the car and you weigh whatever you weigh. Someone asks you, “How could you do it?” You don’t say, “I figured it out.” You don’t say, “I had an emotion about it.” You say, “I just knew.” When you’re in alignment with, “I just know,” you become very strong. What I’d say is that knowing is always there and we ask your body to be a means of communication for it.
Whenever I ask a question, if I pressed on your arm, if it stayed strong, that would mean the answer is yes. If it relaxes, that would mean the answer is no. The question is, “How can I do that when you’re not in my office?” I’m going to tell you how. All you have to do is remember cells and bodies. We said the surface of every cell is different, but underneath it, every cell is a hologram. It has all of the information in the whole universe.
In the same way that I say, “Irene, when you have a problem, there’s dense energy. Bring all your attention to it, so much so that you are going to become sick to your stomach.” All I do is the same thing. Irene is a dense energy because, believe me, you wouldn’t be calling me up for therapy if Irene wasn’t a dense energy.
You could say, “Irene is a dense energy in the body of life.” All I’m going to do is, because I’m not traumatized right now, I’m going to go into the template and find the dense energy I call Irene and then I’m bring all my attention to it and I’m going to become that energy, just like you would become sick to stomach from the inside out. I’m going to become Irene from the inside out. If I muscle test and if you see it and I said my name is Andy, it would say no. If I said my name is Irene, it will say yes because I am now so focused on you and we have the same life force. It just happens to be different on the surface.
I could then muscle test you and it’s all simultaneous. It’s not that the information travels. You could be 100 million light years away and if we could communicate with each other, which would be a different subject, but I could muscle test you when we get the information simultaneously because it’s all happening at the same time. The information doesn’t have to travel. It’s all non-local because there is no locality. That’s how I train people to muscle test. They can stand in for anybody because they are everybody. Everybody’s who I am. I focus.
Now you’re helping people individually online through Zoom doing this. What do you do with couples? How do you help couples?
The quick question is, there’s a lot to say about that, but I’ll tell you a few things. The worst thing for couples is mutual grudges. Mutual grudges destroy couples. A mutual grudge is when they feel like they keep score and they think that the reason they’re keeping score is their partner, but it has nothing to do with their partner. One way I do it is to work on each of their grudges and how they interlock and then I have them heal each other. I’ll tell you what I mean in a sense. It is unbelievably cool. Not only is it cool, but it’s also unbelievably effective.
The other way I do it is I use the Enneagram because I can help people understand themselves and their partners from the inside out. If you know the Enneagram well, which I do, it’s like if I know your point and I know your partner’s point, I can tell you about your relationship and I can tell you what draws you to each other, what the challenges are. I can tell you everything and you’d say, “Are you in our house? You’re telling us things that we couldn’t even articulate.” The framework is so powerful. I can then help people understand each other also. I can then help them be free of their compulsions by finding their core fears. I’ll give you a quick example of a mutual grudge.
If you want to hear both sides of it, it’s amazing because they line up so well. This story is in our book. A man and wife came in because he had slugged her. They were both in shock because that wasn’t like him. We did a little work on what would happen so it would never happen again around safety. I was to work on a mutual grudge. I asked her first and I’ll tell the story not the way it exactly happens because it’s a little bit more interesting this way. I ask her first, “What’s going on? Pick any scene you like.”
They both pick the same scene. That doesn’t always happen. They can pick any scene they want, but tell me about a time it doesn’t work. She tells me about this time it doesn’t work. She explains it. I have to give you the backstory. They’re a couple. They’re both working class, very large. He’s very large and she’s very large. They had a kid and she was going to be a stay-at-home mom, which is what she wanted to do.
He was a master electrician. He had an accident right after they had the kid and he was having a workman’s comp trial. He wasn’t bringing any money at that point, so he had to be a stay-at-home dad and she had to go and work, which was not making her happy and not making him happy. He didn’t know what to do with the kid and she didn’t want to go and work, but that’s the way it was and that’s what happened.
There’s a long story to this, but the short story is she’s coming home one day and he’s trying to do the diapers. He’s doing it in a way that she thinks is funny and not particularly effective. She says jokingly, she thinks, “That’s a stupid way to do the diapers.” He goes off and slugs her. I said, “What did you want to have happen?” She said, “All I wanted was for him to acknowledge me, let me help him, and appreciate that I could do something and he didn’t know how to do it instead of going after me like that.” I said to him, “Could you do that? You never have to do it again.”
He says, “Of course.” He plays it out to a ten exactly the way she wants. I said, “Feel that in the body that there is nothing, that all you want to do is help and he doesn’t accept your help and it makes you crazy because you know how to do it better. It’s a charge for you, that theme.” She goes into her body. I don’t remember the sensation she found because this was many years ago.
She found a sensation. I said, “Now be the sensation.” She says, “I know what’s happening. I’m this seven-year-old girl and I’m there with my mother and she’s trying to do the drapes and she’s not doing a very good job with it. I see a better way to do it. I say, ‘Mommy, let me help you. I see a better way to do it.’ Mommy then says, ‘Go out and play with your friends.’”
She was dismissed.
She says, “I didn’t want to go play with my silly friend.” She’s crying at this point. She runs up to her bedroom and no one comes to look for her. She’s crying and crying, saying, “I just wanted to help my mommy. I knew how to do it and she wouldn’t let me do it.” I say to him, “Could you stand in for the mother?”
“What did you want?” She says, “All I wanted was for her to say, ‘Of course, you can help me, sweetheart. Thank you so much. You are such a bright little girl.’” He does that. She breaks down in tears and the sensations all go away. She’s happy at that point. Let me tell you his story. His story is she walks in and, under her breath, says, “That’s a stupid way to do this.” He goes off.
He heard stupid.
This is not going to be complicated, as you can imagine. He goes off and slugs her. I say, “What did you want?” He said, “All I wanted was some acknowledgment. It was clear I didn’t know how to do this very well and I would’ve been happy to have her help, but at least acknowledge that I’m doing my best and I’m trying.” She says, “I could do that.” She does that and he’s appreciative.
I say, “Forget her. Feel that sensation of someone calling you stupid in your body.” He does. He starts to cry and he says, “I know exactly what’s going on. I’m about nine years old and my father’s a workman. I have this big shovel and I’m trying to shovel some gravel for him. I look over, hoping he’s going to be proud of me. I overhear him say to a friend, whisper, ‘Look at my stupid kid. He doesn’t even know how to shovel.’”
I remember him saying that. I’m getting goosebumps now. “All I wanted was that.” He breaks down crying and his wife looks at me because she tells me later, they’ve been married for many years. They got married very young and they had this kid. I can see them. Maybe they got married at eighteen and this was like in the early 30s.
Anyway, he starts bawling. She says later, “I’ve never seen this man cry.” I go and I say, “Can you stand in for the father?” She says, “Of course.” I ask what he wants. He says, “All I wanted was my father to say, ‘I can see you’re having trouble, but you’re trying so hard and I so appreciate you. I’m happy to show you how to do this.’” She says, “I can do that.” She does it. He breaks down crying and they’re hugging each other and she’s looking at me.
You’re a miracle worker.
That’s how you heal mutual grudges. If you know how to heal mutual grudges and you know how to help people understand each other from the inside out, you can go a long way in couple’s therapy.
That is a beautiful story, Andy. I love that. Thank you. Tell us about your healing circles, destination healing retreats, and the best way for people to connect with you and the Life Centered Therapy Institute.
I run healing circles and then we do the work in a group, which is lovely. All I do is have everybody check in like they’re all part of a body. There are cells in a body and everybody checks in and then various things can happen. I start muscle testing the circle because the circle is a living being. I’ll find out, do they all have to drop into something? Do we have to find a common theme? Do we have to find a common pattern? Does one person work and then somebody knows what they need and then that person works? There are all kinds of different ways it can go and we all work together and it’s like all of us going on a journey together of healing and supporting each other.
Do you schedule these healing circles? Can people go online and decide to join your healing circle? Is that how it works?
Your destination healing retreats, are you all restarting them after COVID?
We probably will. We haven’t set a date yet, but we go away every year on a retreat and do two healing circles every day, which gets lovely and intense and builds and builds. We do them either for four days or we do them for a week. It’s either 7 sessions or 11 sessions and we all live together and eat together.
I’m sure people become fast friends from these experiences.
It becomes very deep and intimate. That’s that. If they want to get in touch with us, all they have to do is go to LifeCenteredTherapy.com. If they want to reach me, it’s very simple. They do AHahn@LifeCenteredTherapy.com. If they want to learn about our trainings, because we do online trainings, it’s Go.ReadyForAMiracle.net/free-training. They can find out about our trainings, but they can see that on our website. We train people online now and it’s joyful.
It must be wonderful. You’re helping so many people, it’s wonderful. Andy, why should people want to heal in this lifetime while they’re here? What would you like to tell them about that? Why is it important?
They have to make up their minds if they want to be freer or if they want to live a life of being on automatic. Free will is you want to be free, which means you have to face the things that you haven’t wanted to face, but then they don’t run your life anymore or are you going to let them run your life and not necessarily be aware of it, but eventually, they’ll show up because something will happen to you or they’ll play out in symptoms or whatever. Life keeps knocking and saying, “I’m here.” If you keep running away, it keeps saying, “I’m bigger than you are and I’m not going anyplace. I’m going to help you because I’ll never leave you. I wish you would leave me.”
It’s the one thing that says, “You’ll never be alone. I’ll never abandon me. I’ll always help you heal even if you don’t like what you’re seeing because to heal and grow, you have to face things you’re most afraid to experience.” That’s free will. Free will is simply you go kicking and screaming or do you say, “What the heck? I’ll smile and I’ll face it. That’s it.”
It’s wonderful and beautiful and so true. Andy, what is your tip on finding joy in life?
I have two tips. The first one is you have to get let go of the things that are in the way of joy. That’s everything we talked about. Whenever there’s something you reacted to, you won’t have joy. You have to feel in the body the reactivity and let it share. There’s one other thing. I’ll say one small thing, which is some people have trauma around joy because it’s been traumatized.
You have to do this. Start with what are you afraid of if you experience joy. What you’ll usually find is some sexual abuse. That will be a joy and pleasure because some people have charged in pleasure and joy. I’ll tell you the best way to do it is to go under, go to a quiet spot that you love, and ask the deepest part of you, like your gut, what you know is true for you.
If you’re living your truth, what’s true for you? Bring your attention up a little bit to the center of your chest. There’s a soft voice there if you listen. It’s not what you want to do. It’s what your deep heart says, “I’m going to have a message for you.” You listen and say, “Given that what I know is true for me, what do I desire? Not a superficially desire, but what would give me a sense of aliveness and joy and every moment I’d be saying yes?”
Whatever it says, go for it. Even then, use your head, which is the last place to go, which doesn’t know anything about what’s true for you or what your joy is, but it may be able to help you make it happen. Everything is reversed. The head thinks it knows everything. It knows nothing except for the fact that once you know what’s true for you and what you truly desire, what you long for. Maybe I can help. Maybe I can be discerning and help make it happen. That’s my wisdom.
Everyone, you’re reading about two people who know what joy is because what Andy does is his mission and has given him tremendous joy. What I’m doing through this show is my mission and is giving me tremendous joy. I would say that we are living what you said about finding that piece that makes you happy.
Andy, I truly know from my own personal experience that healing transforms a person’s inner world and shifts that person’s reality in many positive ways. I applaud you and your Life Centered Therapy Institute for your significant healing transformations in people’s lives as you actively pursue your mission to help end all suffering. Bravo.
I’m already looking forward to bringing you back on this show to introduce the audience to your book, The One Hour Miracle. Thank you from my heart for this dynamic, impactful, important healing interview. Make sure to follow us and like us on social at @IreneSWeinberg on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube. As I like to say, to be continued, many blessings and bye for now.
- Andrew Hahn’s website
- Autobiography of a Yogi referenced in this episode
- Email Andy Hahn
- Check out Andy Hahn’s Trainings
- Andy Hahn’s book The One Hour Miracle
- @IreneSWeinberg on Instagram
- Irene Weinberg on Facebook
- Irene Weinberg on Twitter
- Irene Weinberg – Grief, Rebirth + Healing Podcast on YouTube